KATHLEEN: Hello, and welcome to The Monster & The Child, where childhood studies and monster studies collide. I am Dr. Kathleen Kellett, and today I have a very special guest, Ryan Douglass, the author of YA horror texts such as The Taking of Jake Livingston and the upcoming Night of Madness. Thank you, Ryan, for coming on to talk with me.

RYAN: Thank you so much for having me.

KATHLEEN: So before we get into the questions, I wanted to let you and also the viewers know a little bit about how I came to be familiar with your work, which was through my doctoral dissertation project, which I’m assuming is how I was found for this interview. Because your publisher reached out to me for this, which was extremely cool. So I found your book – I found Taking Up Jake Livingston at Giovanni’s Room, which is a queer bookstore here in Philadelphia. And I was looking for YA monster stories that I could use for my dissertation, which was about monsters and politics in adolescent literature. So, you know, read the… read the inside, uh, cover, realized that would be perfect, and wound up using it in the, um, six-month Monster Book Club that I did for my dissertation, where I, you know, talked with teenagers from around the country about these texts and sort of co-created a lot of knowledge about theories of monstrosity and what it… what those metaphors mean to, um, adolescents in America today.

RYAN: Wow, that is extremely cool.

KATHLEEN: Thank you.

RYAN: I’m so honored to have been a part of that. Thanks for sharing.

KATHLEEN: Well, I hope that I can make you feel even a little bit more honored, because your book was probably the most fruitful discussion of the entire project when we talked about your book.

RYAN: Wow. Oh my god.

KATHLEEN: Um, yeah, so your book, when we discussed it, and I can’t remember exactly what point in the six months it was, but…the discussion was so just extremely sort of profound, what some of the participants came up with. And it was one of the… made from one of the tensor discussions in the, uh, book club, but in such a way that I was so impressed with the participants, because, despite there being, like, some disagreements, um, and we wound up talking a lot about the phrase “hurt people hurt people,” um, which is one of the conversations that came out of your book. Um, the participants were all so respectful and genuinely interested in what everyone had to say. And we also got into, I thought, very fruitful discussions of different experiences of school settings, based on both geography and race and some of the experiences that Jake goes through in the book.

So I also wanted to tell you that I’m still in touch with a few of the participants. This study, the fieldwork was in 2022. So most of them are in college now. And I’m still in touch with a few, and I let some of them know that I would be doing this interview with you, and one of them got back and asked if I would share this message. So I just pull it up. OK, this is from Marisa, who is now a college student doing pre-law and plans on going to law school for immigration law. And she said — and now I’m quoting her — “I’d love to share a statement with him, more of a thank you than a question. I actually find myself relating to his character now more than ever. As a minority student attending a large institution, I often experience similar feelings of anxiety and isolation. However, like Jake, I’ve been able to navigate the world around me by surrounding myself with community, even in its simplest forms. So even four years after reading The Taking of Jake Livingston, I still find myself identifying with his character. It’s comforting to know that there is no age limit to connecting with the characters we read about, and that their stories can take on new meanings as we enter different chapters of our own lives. I would love to thank Ryan Douglass for creating a character whose story has continued to make me feel seen and understood years after first reading it.”

RYAN: Wow. That was beautiful. Um, wow, yeah…That, you know, thank you for sharing that, first off, but it makes total sense, because I actually conceived of this story while going through a PWI, um, and trying to make sense of feeling marginalized in that environment. So it makes sense that, you know, a college student would still relate to that because that’s kind of where I was.

KATHLEEN: Yeah, that’s really interesting. And she’ll be interested to know that that was also the sort of conception of the story and the character.

Now that I’ve gotten all of that out of the way, I have some questions for you, mostly centered on Night of Madness, because that is your new book that is coming out soon. Um, but the first question is just, tell us about your books. Who are the young people in them, and who are the monsters?

RYAN: Um, so I guess I can try to think about what connects the three, or… I guess, is this, like, a horror discussion, or is it all of my books?

KATHLEEN: You can talk about all your books.

RYAN: Okay, so I really like exploring characters who are navigating isolation. I think that as a young person, I was someone who felt kind of like I was in my own little world a lot of the time. Just like a really kind of reclusive, shy kid who had a lot of things to say, but just didn’t feel connected with the world. So I like to explore characters who feel a sense of disconnection with the world around them. Um, so with Mara, she’s dealing with feeling like her life is not enough at the beginning of the story, and like, she needs some sort of outlet for, um, just experiencing the kind of life that makes her feel fulfilled. I think she kind of feels like she’s going through the motions, and you know, she isn’t… she’s the oldest child, so she feels like a sense of responsibility for her family. Um, so it’s really just about how she goes through this journey and comes to realize by the end that, similar to Jake, who realizes that community is kind of what keeps him alive, that what she had at the beginning wasn’t as bad as she thought. So I like writing about characters who kind of come of age and understand like what it is that keeps them supported, despite feeling a sense of disconnection from the world around them.

KATHLEEN: Awesome. Yeah, so that’s about Night of Madness. Mara is the main character of that one. And yeah, I, first of all, really enjoyed the story. And, like, that idea of…like that sort of disconnection of not feeling, like, what’s happening now can possibly, like, be it. Like, that surely there’s more to it than this, which I feel is extremely common, kind of for everyone these days, but I think especially for people Mara’s age, who are 18.

RYAN: Yeah, I feel it even now. I’m 32, and I still feel like, is this it, you know, I’m still kind of trying to get to the point where I feel like…I guess, like, the life that I was promised as a kid is, like finally here. I think it’s just an ongoing journey for everyone, no matter what stage you’re at.

KATHLEEN: Yeah, absolutely. And then tell me a little bit more about the monsters in your stories.

RYAN: So, um, the monster in Night of Madness is quite different from the one in The Taking of Jake Livingston. I think the monster in Night of Madness kind of represents this generational divide, because we have this older man who is kind of at the end of his career, and we have Mara, who’s at the stage where she’s going from, like, childhood into adulthood, and I think the way they clash is kind of like a physical representation of generational clashing in a way. So, essentially, the idea in Night of Madness is that this washed-up movie director wants to make a comeback, and he does that by creating a reality show that’s kind of like a Fear Factor survival show situation, but it’s for horror fans who want to immerse themselves in, like, a real-life authentic horror experience. So it’s set in this asylum that’s one of, um, the settings from one of his movies, and Mara signs up, essentially because she wants to earn the money. There’s $100,000 at the end of it, and she wants to earn the money, so she goes just because she wants to get her family out of poverty. You know, she’s in a situation where she feels like she has to step up, and um, change the environment around her and help her family.

And Jack, on the other hand, is kind of reaching back into this influencer ecosystem because he’s trying to gain relevancy. So, it’s kind of about how Jack’s search for relevancy or like his trying to rekindle himself clashes with this girl who is relatively innocent and still kind of just, like, doing things because she doesn’t know what else to do. Um, and so I think the monster is really this predatory adult, kind of creating this environment for these kids who don’t know what they’re getting into. Um, and I do like, I think that is something that connects Jake Livingston as well to Night of Madness, is that Jake Livingston does also look at predatory adults and how they create environments for young people that are not suitable to their, um, growth and prosperity and their comfort, most of all. So, Night of Madness is more of, like, a campy slasher, but I think that theme, um, connects both of the books.

KATHLEEN: Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, tonally, the books are rather different. But I did sort of like – I found both Mara and Jake, like, very sort of easy to connect with in terms of that, like – that feeling that the adults are not necessarily on your side, that they don’t necessarily understand or even want to understand exactly what’s going on.

RYAN: Yeah.

KATHLEEN: All right. So my next question: what drew you to write young adult horror?

RYAN: I think – that’s a great question. So I was writing, like I said, I was coming up with Jake Livingston when I was kind of in my freshman, sophomore year of college, and trying to make sense of my environment, so it was kind of a natural…just a natural pull to the genre because it was what was right behind me in life, so I think that’s why I ended up choosing that. And I’ve continued to do it, because even as I’ve grown older, you know, and I’ve been writing adult as well, but I still like writing YA, because I still feel like there’s something about those stories that just capture me in a different way, that have always captured me in a different way. Um, it doesn’t feel so focused on like, I guess, limiting yourself in terms of like how much fun you can have. And I like doing a lot of like genre blending. And I just like doing really like wacky stuff, and I feel like YA is just a really fun environment to be able to do that stuff.

Um, so yeah, and horror, I mean, it was always something that just felt, like, really immediate, like, really sensory, and I loved how I could just be, like, really honest through that medium, and just talk about the things that are scary without having to, you know, sugarcoat that at all, because the point is to be really raw, and I just… I found that to be very honest, so it inspired me, for sure.

KATHLEEN: Yeah. Absolutely. I think – I mean, my whole deal on this channel is what monsters and horror and, you know, the things that we and society at large fear can tell us about what we value, um, what sorts of people we pay attention to and listen to. And I think that lack of sugarcoating it is part of what, uh, makes these genres so impactful, is that, like, there’s… there’s no way to get around and, like, pretend to not get the point.

RYAN: Mm, yeah. Yeah, agreed.

KATHLEEN: OK, so in Night of Madness, you deal a lot with influencer culture, which you’ve already brought up, public personas, and the relationship between outside perception and identity. How and why do you see these aspects of contemporary youth life tipping over into something that can be explored through horror?

RYAN: Hmm. Um, I think that the connection between, like, the social fears of not being enough, I guess, because of just like the social media ecosystem, the way we compare ourselves and the way we see these lives that look like they’re so perfect and picturesque – I think that kind of connects to this fear of just, like, not being somebody. And I was thinking about that, in terms of, like, how youth is being trained to like see their lives as like – or see themselves and see the value in themselves – like, I’m a little bit worried about how external validation is becoming so prominent, I guess, in people’s minds. So I kind of felt like, when it came to, like, writing something that felt urgent to the moment, I wanted to look at the way that the digital age and social media is kind of corrupting our views of who we are and like what’s really important. Um, so, I think that’s a conversation that is, like, a so… it’s, like, a social conversation, but I think that the horror kind of makes it something that’s commercial and entertaining, and it gives me access to that conversation, like in a way that I can still have fun, like, exploring it, so it doesn’t feel like I’m, like, preaching or trying to, like send a message too much, you know?

KATHLEEN: Yeah, absolutely. I think that preachiness is one of the, like, death knells of children’s literature in general. So I love that idea – and I think it’s so interesting how sort of, like, making it even scarier than the reality is like – almost lightens it up a little bit. So it gives you a way in to talk about it.

RYAN: Yeah, I think it does because I think I do think that this book is over the top on purpose. And I hope that people who read it know that I know that. I hope they don’t think that I’m like – I actually talked to – so this is an IP. It’s Temple Hill’s IP, they came up with the concept. And I was telling one of the guys that I work with at the company that it’s kind of like candy for me, like, because Jake Livingston and Nick and Jay, which is my second book, they felt so like – like, they’re scary, but I feel like the reality is just so…it’s just so palpable also in the text. Like, even with the elements that are more surreal or, like, over the top, it just still feels so, like, gritty and raw. Whereas Night of Madness, it feels more… it was… I feel like it was my first chance to really just have some fun. So I’m just like, I’m just having a good time and, you know, obviously, of course, there’s the themes, but I really just wanted to have some fun.

KATHLEEN: I… I think that, like, a fun slasher, uh, sort of remakes, remixes, are having a moment. I just saw, um, Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma the other night. Have you seen that yet?

RYAN: I haven’t seen that, I’ve heard of it.

KATHLEEN: It was so good. I highly recommend it. Like, you wrote this book, so I know that you’re gonna like it.

RYAN: Okay, great. Noted.

KATHLEEN: Okay, so, um, in both Night of Madness and The Taking of Jake Livingston, you focused a lot on class and also family dynamics. What makes these themes ripe for exploration in horror literature?

RYAN: So with Mara’s situation, she’s explicitly trying to get out of poverty. Jake Livingston is in a situation where he’s adapting to an environment that doesn’t feel familiar to him, because he goes to a fancy private school, but he’s from a working class background. So I think that for Mara, it’s about kind of like finding an escape from a situation that feels really, just like…like, nothing. Like, it’s just kind of like you’re… you don’t have anything. And for Jake, it’s kind of adapt to an environment that he’s being told is supposed to be helping him, but actually feels like it’s harming him. Um, I think when it comes to the way that horror kind of intersects these… both of these situations, is that it feels like it should be something that’s helping you, but it actually is something that is harming you, and I think that duality is what actually makes the stories feel dynamic.

So, Mara is someone who feels like nothing can really hurt her. She feels like she’s kind of she’s got this kind of like hardened exterior. She can do anything, you know, and she goes in this competition because she feels that way about herself. And then she realizes, oh, wait, actually – well, I think she realizes a lot of things about herself. But she realizes that there are certain vulnerabilities that the villain in the book actually is able to access in her, and it kind of makes her realize that she, as a person, is a more…is not as tough as she thinks, but then she also realizes that there are areas that she is tough, so I think the horror – the horror experience kind of like allows her to understand more about who she really is, outside of just like what she presents.

KATHLEEN: Yeah. Definitely. And I will say she’s tougher than me for going to any kind of haunted house. I need a… need a screen or a page in between me and the horrors. Are you a haunted house person?

RYAN: Um, I would not do an extreme haunt. I actually – I would do like the one, the regular ones, like the regular ones where you just walk through, but the extreme haunt, the idea is that they can like touch you and like do things to you. It’s for, yeah, I don’t – I would never do that.

KATHLEEN: Yeah.

RYAN: I remember watching a documentary on it, and I was like, I can’t believe that people would actually do that voluntarily. But it’s for thrill seekers and I’m more of, like, a stay-at-home person.

KATHLEEN: Yeah, um, my wife goes to some of the local haunted houses every year at Halloween, and I’m always like, bye, see you later.

RYAN: Yeah, I mean, I did one, I remember, a few Halloweens ago, I did one. It was more funny than scary to me, but that was one where they couldn’t touch you, so…

KATHLEEN: Right. Yeah, she’s done both. She hasn’t done, like, some of the, like, very, very extreme ones, but she’s done some of the ones where, like, they can separate you from the group and all of that, like, horrible.

RYAN: Oh yeah, oh my gosh, that’s…Wow, yeah, that’s really scary.

KATHLEEN: Yeah. OK. So on my channel, I talk a lot about stories that challenge social constructions of childhood and youth. Are there any commonly held beliefs about young people that you hope to challenge through your work?

RYAN: I think one belief that really, like, irritates me when I see it from adults is just this idea that they know more than young people. I think life experience is something that is just like really mercurial, and you can never know, like, what someone has been through. Like, there are some children who have been through worse than, like, some 40-year-olds, because it’s all about, like, your background and, like, what you were exposed to. And I think that’s why storytelling is so important, because we’re seeing all these different facets of life that we might not have even considered, and you’re realizing, oh, that happens. And you go and you research and you realize that there are so many ways that people can show up in life. There’s so many like disorders and things that you can be exposed to. So I, I, yeah, I think the idea that kids are innately more naive than adults, I think is, like, very silly, because you really have to, like, take the – kids are people, you gotta, like, listen, you gotta, you gotta understand, like, everybody has a different experience, like, no matter what age they are. I definitely want to show that and just show that through kids who are exposed to too much too soon, because that’s something that, that, it happens, and if we’re, like, belittling children, we’ll never really understand, like the full breadth of what that’s like.

KATHLEEN: Yeah. Or, like, believe them when they try to communicate that.

RYAN: Yes, that’s another one we people just don’t believe children. It’s weird. I I feel for children a lot. I felt for myself as a child even going through it. I’m like, what’s going on? This is not fair. But I still do, because I remember that.

KATHLEEN: Yeah, 100%. And in my dissertation project – and so my background, my degree is in childhood studies, which is not much of an established thing here in the US. There are very few programs for it. So most people assume I do like childhood development, and I don’t know anything about that. Um, it’s more like the… it was a field that was started by, like, sociologists and anthropologists about, like these cultural ideas and social constructions of childhood and youth, and then how those actually impact real kids. So part of the idea for my dissertation study was to like actually get youth voices, like youth ideas into scholarship of, uh, YA literature, because it’s, like, for them, so their reactions to it, their theories about it should be part of that, but, you know, children are excluded from many spaces, academia certainly being one of them. And so, yeah, all that to say, I extremely vibe with your answer.

And also, when we had the discussion about Jake Livingston in that project, one of the things that came up was, like, one of the participants was sort of taken aback and questioned the possibility of, like, some of the, like, teachers and, you know, people who worked at Jake’s school being as dismissive and unhelpful of his experiences with, like, peer bullying and stuff like that as they were. But then other participants were like, nope, that was fully realistic. So, you know, grim, but also like, you know, they were learning from each other through having shared access to this story and sort of relating their different experiences to it. So what you said about, like, storytelling sort of allowing that, like, communication absolutely was borne out with your book in the study.

RYAN: Mmm. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, because I think that’s one of those things that is different, like, it depends on your environment, you know? I think in Jake’s environment, it was realistic that the teachers would be dismissive.

KATHLEEN: Yeah, that was the consensus of participants. I had a couple of Black participants from Georgia, and both of them were like, nope, he nailed that, so.

RYAN: Yeah, I mean, it definitely was pulled from experiences that I had being bullied, and just kind of feeling like the teachers – there were teachers who would just see it and just kind of just – just overlook it.

KATHLEEN: You know. Yeah, just sort of – I mean, that was a very powerful part of that book, like the really awful things that are said a hundred percent in earshot of like the English teacher and she’s just like, moving on past that, not dealing with it.

RYAN: Yep, yep, yep, I know that too well.

KATHLEEN: Yeah.

RYAN: Unfortunately.

KATHLEEN: Okay, so here on YouTube, most of my viewers are adults. So not necessarily – even though I obviously, the point of the channel is to talk about children and adolescents within monster stories, I’m not always talking about like actual adolescent literature. So for adults who are watching, what is your pitch for what an adult reader might get out of a YA novel?

RYAN: Um, I think…so, I was just at a festival, and one of the keynotes said something that really resonated with me, and she said for a lot of YA authors, because YA is a relatively new genre, um… a lot of us are reparenting our inner child, because we didn’t get to see stories where our experiences were represented, or, I guess, the way that we wanted to engage with our experiences, like… For example, growing up, I had representation in books that were about, um, like, movement work, and, like, Black issues, and they were very, like, culture-focused, and there were books about, you know, Black boys playing basketball and being in sports, and, you know, it just felt very stereotypical for me. So I didn’t really have, like, a lot of horror growing up, but that’s what I liked, so I would go to horror and, like, see other people living through that, but I never really saw myself. So I think that in that regard, um, what’s happening in YA can feel very nostalgic, but also, like, kind of, like, giving you something new. It’s like, it’s giving you something that you didn’t have, um, before, so that’s what I think – that’s why I think YA still has value, just because youth stories still speak to something that is a part of us, I think, even if we’re past that stage in life.

KATHLEEN: Yeah, I 100% agree, and I think that will definitely resonate with, um, a lot of people who watch this channel, um, based on, like, comments I’ve gotten on other, like, child characters in horror stories. All right. What are some things that you think frighten people the same age as your characters, and what frightened you at that age?

RYAN: So, okay, so let me think back to 17, 18, I like part of me wants to make it like a like a meaningful answer, but really just like open water and sharks were like my biggest fear.

KATHLEEN: Reasonable. Reasonable.

RYAN: Yeah, I just, like… I was, like, really scared of I guess like going too far into the ocean as a kid and just being out there. Um, I was really afraid of clowns, as well.

KATHLEEN: Also highly reasonable.

RYAN: Uh, yeah, I… I don’t know. I mean, obviously, like, there were the things that I was afraid of, like…like, socially, but I think we’ve covered a lot of that, so.

KATHLEEN: Yes, yeah, that’s fair.

RYAN: Clowns and open water were my biggest.

KATHLEEN: My wife will definitely agree with you on the open water. She’s always like, that’s not for us. We don’t belong there. That’s for the fish.

RYAN: Yeah. Yes, exactly, exactly. The ocean is so scary. Beautiful, but horrifying.

KATHLEEN: Absolutely. That’s where the real aliens are.

RYAN: Absolutely, yeah.

KATHLEEN: Okay, so what monster stories were most formative to you, especially in your own adolescence?

RYAN: Okay, so I actually wrote a piece all about Monster House because it was just a classic of my youth. Um, because I actually felt that my house was haunted growing up, and so something about seeing that house be alive was, like, validating what I knew. Um, and I felt like… I used to always tell my mom, there’s an old lady in the basement. She’s haunting the basement, and every time I go down there, she, like, chases me upstairs. My mom would just make a… it became, like, a joke in my family, like, where’s the old lady? And I’m like, she’s really there! So, when I saw that, um, and I saw, like, the house is, like, the spirit of the woman, like, the wife of the man who owns it, I was like, that validates something for me. So, definitely Monster House. Um…I remember The Wolfman experiencing that for the first time and being like – just falling in love with werewolves, too. I loved True Blood. I think True Blood was my interest… my first intro to vampires.

KATHLEEN: Hmm. What an intro.

RYAN: Yeah, it was like, I was, I think I was like 12 years old watching that. And in hindsight, I shouldn’t have been, but I was so tuned in. I was like, oh my god, like these are real vampires. So yeah, those are my takes, I think.

KATHLEEN: Excellent. And then you’ve already alluded to being into werewolves, but what is your favorite monster and why?

RYAN: Um, okay, so my favorite monster is actually not even one that I just talked about. I think…

KATHLEEN: Okay.

RYAN: It’s gonna be weird, but I think the Creature of the Black Lagoon, um, not just that movie, but, like any take on that. Because I remember watching, um… there is an episode of Kim Possible… I’m gonna sound corny, but there’s an episode of Kim Possible.

KATHLEEN: I know exactly what you’re talking about.

RYAN: Yeah, based on that, and I remember seeing that, and that was, like, my favorite episode of Kim Possible. Um, the kid, he’s, like, bullied at camp, and then turns into this swamp creature.

KATHLEEN: Gill!

RYAN: Yeah, Gill.

KATHLEEN: Yeah, and then he’s like, now it’s two L’s.

RYAN: Yeah, he’s like the Gill Man, and I just thought he was so cool. Um, I know he was evil, but I just thought that was such a cool monster. So, yeah, the Creature of the Black Lagoon. Choice.

KATHLEEN: Man, I haven’t thought of that in so long, but my sister and I used to quote that all the time at each other. I was Gil, but now I’m Gill!

RYAN: Yeah. It was a great episode. It was really good.

KATHLEEN: Yeah. Oh, man. So those are all of my questions. Is there anything else, especially about Night of Madness, that we haven’t covered that you would like to include?

RYAN: Um…I don’t think so. I think… I mean, I think readers should just be ready to surrender to kind of a surreal, campy, slasher experience that evokes some Willy Wonka and a little bit of Saw, and just a fun time, you know, just a fun Halloween read, so. Yeah, I hope people like it.

KATHLEEN: Yeah. The back of the book has that Willy Wonka meets Saw, and usually I feel like those X meets Y are like totally – have nothing to do with anything. But this one I was like, no, no, that was accurate. That is what happens here.

RYAN: Yeah. Yep, that’s pretty much what you get.

KATHLEEN: Thank you so much for joining me, um, and everyone remember to go and pick up a copy of Night of Madness by Ryan Douglass.

RYAN: Thank you.

NIGHT OF MADNESS drops September 29! Order it here: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Night-of-Madness/Ryan-Douglass/9781665983044

Check out Ryan’s other novels, THE TAKING OF JAKE LIVINGSTON and THE GREAT DISILLUSIONMENT OF NICK AND JAY: https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-taking-of-jake-livingston-ryan-douglass/ca38fe534fefd42e?ean=9781984812551&bkshp-astro=t, https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-great-disillusionment-of-nick-and-jay-ryan-douglass/ba58cba0343710af?ean=9780063312487&bkshp-astro=t